Transcript of "Research on conlang communities" thread in the Kelutral.org Discord server

Eve

Hello, nice to meet you all! My name's Eve, I'm a linguist and huge conlang nerd, and ten years ago I wrote my dissertation on the factors that contribute to the success of a constructed language. As well as looking at conlangs created to overcome language barriers (like Esperanto and Volapük), I researched conlangs made for movies, books and games: Quenya, Dovahzul, Klingon and, obviously, Na'vi. Back in 2015 I made a thread on the LN forums asking people for their insight into learning Na'vi (you can see that original thread here https://forum.learnnavi.org/beginners/dissertation-on-conlangs) and now a whole decade later I'm revamping my dissertation for public release on my blog and I thought it would be interesting to check up on the communities I spoke to in the past.

If any of you would be happy to answer a few questions, I'd really appreciate it. Your responses will be completely anonymous, but I do intend to display answers publicly (without your name attached) for people to access the information without having to join the Discord so by replying in this thread I will assume you are giving me permission to share or use any of your words. If there is something you explicitly do not want me to use in this research, please say so somewhere in your message. You don't have to answer all the questions if you don't want to.

1. Do you know/speak any other conlangs apart from Na'vi?
2. How fluent in Na'vi are you? (know a couple of words/speak at a basic level/speak quite well/fluent)
3. Why did you choose to start learning Na'vi, other than enjoying Avatar?
4. Where do you use Na'vi, both online and offline?
5. How do you feel about community additions to the language, such as non-canon vocabulary or grammatical structures?
6. Is it important for you that the community's form of Na'vi is as accurate to the canon as possible?
7. Is it important to you that the Na'vi language reflects the canon Na'vi culture, or are you open to modern additions/concepts/vocabulary?
8. Do you feel the LEP aids or hinders the development of Na'vi as a community language?
9. Have there been any big intracommunity shifts over the last ten years? eg. prominent figures advocating for changes that Paul Frommer disagrees with or hasn't canonised, or certain vocabulary being changed or removed after it has already been canonised?

If there's anything else you'd like to mention about your experiences with Na'vi or conlangs in general please don't hesitate to do so! If you would be more comfortable sharing your answers privately, please feel free to email me at evegwood@yahoo.co.uk (please don't DM me! I'd like to keep answers in a place that's easy to find again to refer back to).

And of course, when the piece is finished, I'll pop back in here to share it with you!

Really appreciate anyone taking the time to answer, I know that's a lot of questions 🙏

LN-24

1. No, this is my first conlang that I'm attempting to learn. Though I am curious as to whether I'd ever pick up another conlang.
2. Not very, I can only string a few basic sentences together.
3. Not sure, I think it was something to do with how the language sounded over other conlangs.
4. I know no-one in the real world to speak Na'vi with, so aside from muttering a few words to myself it is only online.
5. I feel it is good. Even for a linguist it would be difficult to create a functioning conlang with an expanding vocabulary.
6. Yes and no. I feel that being aware of the original is good, but the change and evolution of a language in a community is a natural occurance.
7. Mostly yes, but considering that the Na'vi have contact with humanity, it is not incongruous for words to be developed or loanwords to be borrowed of technology or other topics that their culture would not naturally develop for centuries or millennia.
8. I feel it aids the development of Na'vi as it would both ease the burden of creating a language, and emulates how words would be developed, changed, and lost in natural languages from the change of cultures and communities.
9. I cannot say myself, as I have barely been here a year, and am not yet versed in the language, let alone it's history.

LN-18

Answered already over on LN, happy to see it over here! :hype:

LN-20

Same :derp:

LN-9

Same :omegaderp:

LN-18

:hrh_lol:

LN-25

1. No, just Na'vi. Maybe someday I’ll try learning another one, but I don’t plan to do so any time soon.
2. I’m conversationally functional. I wouldn’t quite call myself “fluent” but I can generally understand what’s being said to me and make myself understood in return in both written and verbal conversation. I think I have a good grasp on the grammar and a decent vocabulary but need more practice putting it to use fluidly in “real time”.
3. I was aware for a long time that Na'vi was a constructed language (as opposed to gibberish) but for some reason didn’t make the connection that it was actually learnable until I happened to stumble across the Na'vi as a Second Language YouTube channel. I got sucked down the rabbit hole from there and continued because I enjoyed it.
4. I use Na'vi to converse with other speakers on this server, to write little stories and comics, and I keep a personal Na'vi journal.
5. The only things that I’m specifically aware of being “community additions” are using mood infixes in srane and kehe, and the [name] si slang construction used to mean something along the lines of “pulling a [name]” in the sense of “do as [name] would do”. I like both of these structures.
6. I don’t think anything should egregiously contradict the canon, but I’m open to making inferences to fill in gaps for things that haven’t been confirmed one way or the other.
7. I think the core of the language should reflect canon Na'vi culture because that makes sense from a worldbuilding perspective. However, I have no qualms with official words for some modern concepts existing for the sake of us human learners who want to chat about our daily lives without needing to awkwardly dance around various technologies with complicated descriptions. No, a canon Na'vi living on Pandora would probably have no idea what you’re talking about it you use the term spulmokri (phone, literally “propelvoice”), but it sure is convenient for the IRL human community actually using the language.
8. I think it helps. It’s a nifty way to find gaps in the language and suggest ideas.
9. Not that I’m aware of, but I’ve only been here three years.

LN-26

1. I know of a lot of other conlangs, but the only other one I can speak at a basic level is Klingon
2. I consider myself almost fluent. I can have a spontaneous spoken conversation with relatively few mistakes, but if it gets complex, I will regularly have to pause to figure out the right word or way to phrase something
3. I grew up multilingual and have always been interested in languages, but I didn't realise that until I started learning Na'vi :derp:
4. I don't know anyone near me who speaks it, so offline speaking only happens during the occasional meetup. Every Friday I speak it in voice chat. I sometimes stream myself playing games while speaking it. I translate games, songs and other things into Na'vi.
5. If Paul has given it his blessing, I'm okay with using it. Otherwise, if there is no good way to express something and you have to borrow a word, that's fine. I also like playing around with the language, as long as everyone is aware that it is not "standard Na'vi"
6. When using it in an Earth context, I don't think we need to unnecessarily restrict ourselves. We can say "it's 3:45 PM", even though the Na'vi don't think of time that way, and that's fine
7. If there's a Na'vi way to succinctly express a modern concept, great. If instead the sky people plausibly brought it as a loan word, cool. If not, then it would depend on if the community really wanted it in the language
8. I definitely think it aids it (I am biased :grin1: )
9. I was away from the community for about 10 years. The only language shift I can think of is that speaking has become much more common, since we went from everyone mainly just writing on a forum + a few people talking over Skype, to everyone mainly using Discord which has made speaking the language much more accessible

LN-23

I feel like I’m misunderstanding question 5 based on previous replies. Is this about using non canon words / grammatical structures or is it about words/structured that have been canonized by Pawl after emerging from the community?

Eve

I think Na'vi is a special case where the creator does pay attention to and work with the community to develop the language, so I understand the confusion, but I meant using non-canon words/grammar that the community has come up with but that aren't actually "correct" Na'vi because Pawl hasn't canonised them.

LN-23

Tam, irayo. That’s how I understood it, but I started second guessing myself :omegaderp:

Eve

And thank you everyone for all the answers so far!

LN-23

1. Not yet, but I’ve recently started looking into klingon, so hopefully at some point
2. I guess I’d say I speak well? I still make mistakes and sometimes have to think about what I want to say for a while, but I usually notice my mistakes myself and I can definitely have conversations in Na’vi
3. I’m interested in language/languages in general, so when I found out that Na’vi is an actual language, I just knew I had to learn it :kek:
4. Almost exclusively online. I do have a Na’vi journal, but otherwise I only use the language for activities or just chatting here on Kelutral
5. I’m not a fan of using non-canon words or grammatical structures and that seems to be the consensus in the community overall. I think it makes the language nice and structured to have one authority who can canonize words or grammar and I feel like it would become quite confusing and chaotic if everyone started using their own words.
   The only times I would use non canon words are when working on something privately (if you do end up posting it, I’d add a disclaimer about words/structures you made up yourself), when making up fan clans / creatures, or loanwords as those are still easily understandable and often there just isn’t a Na’vi word for certain human things (I personally still mark loanwords when I use them in writing)
6. I feel like this plays into the last question, especially regarding loan words. While I don’t like using stuff that goes directly against the rules, I’d say that we have a completely different culture from the Na’vi and thus the ways in which we use the language will inevitably differ as well. And I think that’s totally fine - we’re fans of the language / the movie, not roleplayers
7. I like that the language resembles the culture, but I’m still open to modern additions. I personally wouldn’t enjoy having a ton of specific and detailed vocabulary for human technology, as that would take the flair away for me, but imo it’s fine to add some modern words with the explanation of the Na’vi having been in contact with the humans
8. Aids for sure! (I too am biased hrh) This is a great way for actually incorporating community additions with the approval of Pawl, which I am definitely in favor of. Someone in the community who regularly uses the language notices what words they are missing, so they can propose words and help develop the language
9. I’ve only been here for about a year, so i can’t really add anything that hasn’t already been said :derp:

LN-27

1. No
2. Basic level; I know a decent number of words and basic grammar concepts, but I can’t say much on the fly.
3. I fell in love with its grammar! When I started looking into Na'vi, it was the first time I'd encountered a grammar system that was super different from English. Previously the only other language I'd studied was French, which has plenty of similarities. I also just really love the sound system of Na'vi.
4. Only online, as none of my IRL friends have any interest in learning it. I only use it in the Kelutral discord.
5. Not too sure, honestly! I would definitely be wary of non-canon grammatical structures. Vocab less so. I like sticking to what's been established. I do think community colloquialisms are fun, and community additions as a whole definitely contribute to the language feeling "alive." Then again, there aren’t too many non-canon community additions that I can think of.
6. This somewhat builds off my last answer - canon accuracy is definitely a big deal to me, and in some ways I might be more of a stickler on this than others.
7. I'm sort of in the middle, I think. Na'vi already has additions/vocab that come from outside their culture due to in-universe interactions with humans, which is an interesting aspect. I think for the most part I like that it reflects their culture, but also understand the need to adapt to a community of modern speakers that obviously are not Na'vi. Overall though I lean more towards it reflecting their canon culture.
8. It is absolutely an aid! In fact the LEP is one thing that sets this community apart, in my opinion. I love that the community can contribute to the canon lexicon. It makes the community feel very involved and, as stated earlier, makes Na'vi as a language feel more alive. I love that it's still growing and expanding and changing.
9. I haven't been in the community long enough to notice anything like this, so I can't say.

LN-28

1. I'm aware of other conlangs, but I don't speak any. Although it's been over a year, the last one I tried learning was Esperanto, and I simply fell out of studying it. I would consider picking it up again though since I didn't find it too challenging.
2. When it comes to actually speaking the language (or listening to it), I'm pretty unskilled, and that's purely a result of the way I've chosen to study and practice. However when it comes to reading and text, I would put myself in the high intermediate/low advanced category.
3. Honestly, being on Kelutral and seeing people communicate in Na'vi gave me some FOMO. I really wanted to be able to communicate in the language, and since I've never actually learned how to communicate fully in another language (I took 3 years of German in high school and didn't try picking it back up until 4 years ago), I really wanted to try and get proficient at Na'vi. Although I am no longer a confident German speaker, I was a much more confident speaker of German than I ever have been with Na'vi, however, I have never been a confident writer in German the way I am now in Na'vi.
4. Online, almost exclusively in Kelutral. I'm not really active in other Na'vi-speaking communities. I'll also sometimes use a little Na'vi in other places but it's rare. Offline, I'll sometimes write notes in Na'vi, or write my reminders in Na'vi, or label things in Na'vi.
5. Noncanon vocab makes sense to me within reason, but not grammar structures.
6. I think if the language grew popular enough to branch off into actual naturally formed dialects, that's one thing, but that doesn't seem like it would realistically happen right now, so I feel like matching the canon is the best way for us to know we're following actual rules and not turning the language into gibberish.
7. It should reflect the canon Na'vi culture, but some modern concepts/vocab make sense to add for our purposes as human speakers, for non-canon use. I just don't think they should dominante in any way.
8. It definitely aids it. Paul Frommer is one guy with his own life, and expecting him to be always thinking of more words and edge cases and prioritizing the Na'vi language is ridiculous. It makes perfect sense for us to have a mechanism to generate these words and then bring them to him in an organized way, while also allowing for anyone to feel they can contribute to the language.
9. I want to say a blanket "yes," but I didn't join the community until 3 years ago, so I'm out of the loop on a lot. I feel like I have seen what you're talking about though, at least to some degree.

LN-28

Sorry message was too long hrh

LN-29

1. I’m aware of a large number of conlangs, and know handfuls of words in them, but Na’vi is the only one I can somewhat understand and use.
2. Ma Eywa I’m nowhere close to fluent. Intermediate level. I still depend on a dictionary to form sentences, but I know the grammar to a decent level.
3. Because I love language. And I love Avatar. They felt like a natural interaction of two interests. I first learned Na’vi sounds back in 2010 with the first movie, but didn’t bother with the grammar. Come 2022, I wanted to be able to understand spoken Na’vi at a basic level in time for The Way of Water.
4. Exclusively online. My friends and family would ostracize me for speaking a “fake language.”
5. Keep it to a minimum. Remember, Na’vi is made for the screen, for works of fiction. While it is wonderful that it can be spoken in the real world by fans, it is still first and foremost a storytelling device and must be kept as accurate to the canon as possible.
6. -
7. Srankehe. Keep in mind that even in canon, the Na’vi and Sawtute are in contact and conflict. The language is bound to pick up some words for human things. pxir (beer) comes to mind but there are plenty of others. Knowing this, I tend to be forgiving of words for human things if they would plausibly be found on Pandora and a Na’vi might be exposed to them.
8. LEP is amazing. I know no other conlang that feels so alive because its community contributes to it. It almost makes us real-life Na’vi in a way. It’s so beautiful and immersive that we were able to defictionalize it to the point of expanding it communally.
9. I’m not sure about this one. But Pawl does sometimes contradict himself. Attitudes towards slang vary and LN-25 mentioned sraneie/kehänge and similar slang that Pawl has expressed both support and disdain for on different occasions. And with the advent of Reef dialect, there has been a schism between those embracing the new dialect and those who openly deny its existence and want to erase it.

LN-29

1. Addendum — I’ll add that I am myself a conlanger and my most developed conlang has well over 1500 words now and a pretty fully functional grammar.

LN-21

(I answered in LN but I'll message here so I can see the thread on my Discord easily)

LN-20

@LN-21 Probably you saw a ping over on LN but I thought I better put it here because the sessions happen here, so I deleted it again: I saw you said you did some Na'vi roleplaying, we do that here too from time to time :D As in, complete session (DM, character speech, character actions) in Na'vi, no English allwoed at all :grin1: If you are interested in such sessions too, I can ping you when they happen next :D

Eve

Thank you everyone for taking the time to answer!

Eve

Following up on what you said about Reef dialect, though these are questions anyone is free to answer, is that the dialect spoken by the new tribe in Way of Water? Has Pawl expanded Na'vi to include new vocab/pronunciations for these new Na'vi to speak? I haven't actually seen the new film yet! 🙇

And RE: support vs disdain for community slang terms, is this something he's expressed on his blog (so I can go hunting for it haha) or elsewhere?

Eve

Oh, and an additional question: was there a big influx of new interest after the announcement/release of the new film, or has the community always been fairly large over the last decade? 9,000 members in a single conlang server is a lot!

LN-20

Reef dialect: The differences are mainly in phonology. We have two words that are mainly used in reef and less in forest, two very small grammar differences, and otherwise it's just phonology so far. And yes, it is the dialect spoken by the reef people from the second movie!

Disdain/support for community slang terms: Pawl actually is known to "legalize" things that are not canon but come up in the community naturally, if he is aware of them. He can't make anything canon of course, after all, he creates the language for the franchise and other people have a say in it, so it needs to stay overall coherent with the lore. But afaik, if he hears that a certain construction/term/... is used in the community a lot, and it makes sense to him, he will make it official.

Big influx: Definitely. Unfortunately, only very few actually stick with the language. We have a very, very high passthrough rate :hrhn: Having looked into a few different conlang spaces, I have the feeling that while many other conlang servers are mostly full of language nerds, poliglots and (hobby) linguists, we have a far higher percentage of people who just got excited watching the movie, only know English and have zero prior knowledge about languages and language learning. Many just look into it for a day or two and then mostly stay to talk about Avatar, without actually learning the language any further. So while we had a very big influx, the number of actual speakers of the language didn't grow that much I feel (although there certainly was a growth)

LN-30

1. Yes, I speak Esperanto and toki pona
2. I can speak Na’vi at a basic level (passive: understand Let’s Play YouTube videos, read nearly any message in Na’vi with the use of a dictionary) (active: while my general vocabulary is somewhat lacking, I gave a presentation about an animal in Na’vi :D)
3. I was interested in conlangs. It was that more than the films that drew me to Na’vi communities online
4. I use Na’vi online in discord servers & watching YouTube videos. Irl I am currently trying to start penpal exchanges with some people
5. If something’s not in Reykunyu, I don’t think I’ll understand it unless it’s a na’vi-ified borrowing from English. I don’t see a particular issue with such borrowings, although I prefer using canon vocabulary over code switching. I’m not sure if any non-canon grammatical structures are used, I’m not advanced enough to be innovating, so if I use non-canon grammar I would just consider that an error.
6. I wish that canon pieces of Avatar lore (eg games) were closer to “canon” Na’vi! It is important to me that our Na’vi follows the established grammar (phonology, morphology, syntax) and grammar of canon Na’vi, or I don’t think it would be the same language.
7. I’m open to modern additions — in fact I see them as making sense as the Na’vi interact with humans. There are also definitely still words for things in Na’vi culture that are currently missing.
8. I must admit I do not know a lot about the LEP, but I appreciate the ability for community input into the language in a centrally standardized manner
9. I don’t know. I’ve only been learning for a year.

LN-20

Wait, the animal presentation was your only active Na'vi speaking so far? I gotta force you to do more speaking hrh

LN-30

I’ve been to some of the speaking lessons but they seem mostly formulaic
Wanted to join the Friday speaking lesson with the advanced people but I was busy last week and will be busy this week :cry1~1:

LN-30

Not like that the conversation formulas are bad but I feel like I need to start making my own sentences :elmo:

LN-30

I feel like there’s a jump btwn beginner conversation lessons and advanced conversation that I’ve been eyeing nervously hrh

LN-20

(I'll continue this in ⁠📝｜general-slow, I'm already spamming this channel to much with unrelated stuff hrh)

Eve

@LN-20 Thank you for the additional info!

@LN-30 Following on from something you said (again, anyone can answer this question): do the games feature inaccurate Na'vi dialogue?

LN-30

Yes, one major thing that’s noticeable about them is the text that includes tìftangs (glottal stops: ') in inaccurate positions, most notably after the vocative particle “ma”:

“ma'yawntu” instead of “ma yawntu” (o loved one)

LN-30

It’s also pretty noticeable in the names, eg a character named Eetu whose name should be Itu

LN-30

I think there’s also an animal named something starting with p'a. That’s an illegal position for a tìftang

LN-30

I don’t play the games myself, but I know these from watching LN-20’s let’s play videos, she might have more to say

Eve

That's so strange! Does the community know why the language is so inaccurate? Was Pawl not involved in writing it?

LN-20

I think, except for one grammar mistake (inclusive instead of exclusive first person plural pronoun used) it's typos. I have written Pawl about this, and he apparently didn't even know there was written stuff in the game (he has never played a video game). So I honestly think it's just devs copying something wrong or thinking "hey, a ' would look cool here" without understanding that the ' actually is a letter)

LN-20

Weirdly enough, specifically the German version has some very bad extra typos in species names in the in game encyclopedia :hrhn:

Eve

That's both very frustrating and very funny.

LN-25

on the topic of the Reef dialect, for what it’s worth I think the assessment on the Reef/Forest split is a tad extreme. It is true that opinions on the Reef dialect are varied, some people love it and are thrilled to get new dialects, other people are less excited and prefer to stick to Forest. But as someone who prefers Forest myself, I don’t think I’ve seen any of us actively “denying” Reef’s existence or trying to “erase” it :huh: People who aren’t interested in personally using or teaching it, yeah sure, and occasional light-hearted headbutting between folks who prefer one dialect or the other, but no one going as far as to legitimately try to remove Reef from the language or stop other people from using it afaik.

Granted, I only spend time on Kelutral, so for all I know it’s certainly possible that the schism is more extreme on LN or other Na'vi communities.

Eve

Thank you for the addition!

LN-23

Mllte hu LN-25. While there are some people who say they hate the reef dialect, that's always in a lighthearted/joking manner (at least from what I've seen). Sure, there are plenty of people who like it less, but those reef-against-forest arguments are in my experience all just play fighting hrh

LN-21

Cool! Good to know

LN-30

I’m excited for new dialects with the next movie!!

LN-21

Speaking of reef dialect:

Eve

Since new dialects are a possibility, how would any of you feel about fan-made dialects, either for fun or for hypothesising on how other Na'vi communities might speak? Is that something any if you are interested in exploring, or are you purely interested in authentic Na'vi?

LN-29

It’s something we’ve done for fun on OmatiCon, or as fan projects, but there’s a consensus that canon and fanon should remain separate, and any fanon dialects should be kept to special channels or threads.

LN-29

That said, there isn’t any negative attitude towards fan dialects as long as they’re clearly labelled as such.

LN-21

Yeah. It's fine to do your own thing with Na'vi as long as you let people know you're doing your own thing

LN-25

Fan dialects are not something that I personally am interested in exploring, but then again my feelings on even the official new dialect(s) are very mixed (the tl;dr version is that from a worldbuilding perspective it totally makes sense to have them, and learning about how they develop is interesting…BUT from a learner’s perspective having multiple dialects to juggle is overwhelming, and from a teacher’s perspective I think it’s most practical to treat Forest as the default/baseline when it comes to teaching even if it’s not technically the “default” in-universe since that’s not how dialects work).

…but that said, I think I’m in the minority there :sweat1: most people I’ve seen seem very excited to get new dialects, and I know several people in the community have had a lot of fun making their own dialects/speculating what could be possible in new ones. While this is not something that I’m interested in participating in myself, I’m not one to rain on other’s parades and agree with Yätu'aw’s and Txonpay’s sentiments that people are welcome to have fun making their own dialects as long as they make it clear that it’s unofficial.

Eve

Thank you! You folks have been super generous with your time answering all my questions, I appreciate it.

LN-20

We love random conlang related studies here hrh When I wrote my bachelor thesis I needed people to let me record them speaking for half an hour and I had too many people offering :derp:

Eve

Just in case anyone else has answers they'd like to give on any of the questions I've asked above, please do feel free to reply! I'll keep an eye on this thread over the next week or so for any new responses :)

LN-31

1. I know the alphabet and script in Ta'agra and can write in my own conlang butt that's about it
2. I can speak it at a basic level although I'm familiar with the majority of the grammar structures
3. it sounded nice tbh lol
4. I sometimes say short sentences to my friends, both online and offline
5. as long as they're thought-through and created by someone who has a good grasp of the language they're fine by me, they should still be addressed as non-canon though
6. yeah although exceptions can be made for situations not accounted for in the canon
7. yeah butt I wouldn't mind it being added upon to include vocabulary or concepts potentially seen in different tribes, as there's not one single Na'vi culture imo
8. aids
9. none that I know of

Eve

Thank you! :)

Eve

Morning everyone! I have another question for you all: currently words are suggested to and canonised by Pawl through the LEP. Have any of you - or maybe even Pawl himself - given thought to how this process will go once Pawl retires from Na'vi or is no longer here to oversee its development? Is that a conversation the community has had yet?

LN-20

From what I know not really. Pawl once said to me that he hasn't really thought about that stuff yet, but that might have changed of course.

LN-18

I’ve thought about it here and there as a passing curiosity but haven’t gone deeper than that

LN-21

This was posted on LN, but here it is for Kelutral ppl:

Pawl even mentioned that here
https://youtu.be/RKzytqELxyI?t=1h25m21s